Nabra Nelson: Salam Alaikum. Welcome to Kunafa and Shay, a podcast produced for HowlRound Theatre Commons, a free and open platform for theatremakers worldwide. Kunafa and Shay discusses and analyzes contemporary and historical Middle Eastern and North African, or MENA, and Southwest Asian and North African, or SWANA, theatre from across the region.
Marina Johnson: I’m Marina.
Nabra: And I’m Nabra.
Marina: And we are your hosts.
Nabra: Our name, Kunafa and Shay, invites you into the discussion in the best way we know how with complex and delicious sweets like kunafa and perfectly warm tea or, in Arabic, shay.
Marina: Kunafa and Shay is a place to share experiences, ideas, and sometimes to engage with our differences. In each country in the MENA or SWANA world, you’ll find kunafa made differently. In that way we also lean into the diversity, complexity and robust flavors of MENA and SWANA theatre. We bring our own perspectives, research, and special guests in order to start a dialogue and encourage further learning and discussion.
Nabra: Welcome to the fifth season of Kunafa and Shay, where we delve into the dynamic world of performance art across the region. We’re highlighting the creative, innovative, and artistic disruption of performance artists, exploring how their art serves as a powerful medium for expression and social change. This season features interviews with performance artists who challenge norms and use their craft to further conversations about topics like identity diaspora, homeland, and futurity.
Marina: Yalla. Grab your tea. The shay is just right.
In this episode, we interview Mama Ganuush, a Palestinian African trans drag artist residing in the Bay Area. We’ll discuss their different styles of drag, the impetus they feel in creating this work, and how they envision the future of drag moving forward. Mama Ganuush is an activist who is dedicated to ending the Palestinian genocide and liberation from the Israeli apartheid. She’s the founder of Heritage Activists and Liberation Artists Collective, House Ganuush, Vocal AF Open Mic, Salon Hala, Hala Cinema, and Hala Cabaret.
Nabra: Today we’ll be focusing on your performance work, but you’re interviewed in the first episode of Healing Home, where you talk a lot about your history and your family’s history. So we very much recommend to our listeners that you check out that first podcast video episode that we’ll link here to learn more about Mama Ganuush’s story and background. So it’s just such an honor to have you here, Mama Ganuush. Thank you so much.
Marina: Yes, we’re such fans.
Nabra: We’re big fans.
Mama Ganuush: Me too. I’m a big fan too. I love that podcast so much, and I love kunafa and I love shay so much.
Nabra: Thank you. So can you describe just a little bit about your work and how you see yourself as an artist?
Mama Ganuush: My discipline is more around drag performance, but I evolved really with time to become more of a representation of Palestinian futurism, of how things would have been if I was a drag artist that was performing in Palestine if Israel never existed. So I really bring in a lot of influence from our Palestinian folk music and culture, but also diaspora music that I grew up in. I grew up in Egypt before moving to Turtle Island. I live in Ramaytush Ohlone lands, which is known now as San Francisco, California. And so I do a lot of incorporation of Egyptian golden era belly dancing just because of just me being in Egypt and also being influenced by that, but also with more of a way of expressing Palestinian futuristic punk, I would say. So in more of just showing Palestinians as not always just the victims, but as heroes and how that would like in case we never been assaulted or colonized by Israel.
So that’s really how I represent it. Most of my work is really focused on storytelling and a lot of more theatre performance. I am trained in as an improv actor, that’s my background, and clowning. I used to do that, and I realized with drag, you could do a lot of this in just six minutes time instead of doing a full improv play for an hour, long-term improv. And the last but not least, a lot of my outfits are also inspired by Palestinian tatreez motifs, for instance, or specific items in Palestinian pictures for my grandparents, for instance, in Jaffa, or some of my family members, some of my elders, but bringing it more into a futuristic way. So everything I do is just try to present Palestine in a way that’s very much have hope and power in it, but also a lot of elegance.
What I also really focus on also through my work is building community and building a movement that’s long lasting for Palestine. That includes the collective that I started, the Hala or the Heritage Activist Collective where we have over forty-six artists now actually all around the world that are dedicated for the liberation of Palestinians, but also liberation for all people fighting colonialism. And through that collective I try to build alternative events because living in San Francisco, there’s a lot of Zionist power and Zionist money like the Civic Joy Fund and other funds that basically operate here. So I try to build more alternatives for artists to actually perform, for example, through the cabaret or through the salon. So this way they could either refuse the gigs or just don’t really collaborate with Zionists or people who are pro-Israel.
And also my salon is an art salon that is explicitly anti-Zionist, and it all would discussed things around key important moments that we have to process as a community here, but also pretty much focused on local activism in San Francisco to make sure that we’re addressing all the local politics and a lot of things that are heavily influenced by, unfortunately, AIPAC and other Zionist lobbies. So, my work is really around representation of Palestinians in a more futuristic way, but also addressing current issues and building an activist movement to continue after the current support for Gaza dies out or fades out. But it seems like it’s not, thankfully, in the community, but I want to make sure that we are consistently supporting Palestine until total liberation, so that’s really… I don’t know if I answered your question.
Marina: You did. That’s incredible, and I just love so many things of what you said. But in addition to some of the performance things that we really want to talk about today, you’re really working in and with community, and as we’re seeing Global South right now in the, there’s so much that we can learn together towards liberation, and these movements really need each other. And so, it’s so inspiring to hear that the Hala Salon and Collective are working internationally with different people, all people who are victims of colonialism and imperialism I’m sure in different ways. So that’s just really inspiring to hear.
Nabra: And also important to point out something that I think a lot of folks don’t think about, and I don’t think as extensively or deeply about, which is the role that Zionism and pro-Israel sentiment or investment has in the arts, and that being intentional about not participating in that can be tricky and difficult, especially depending on where you are and how much research you may have done into that at different arts institutions that one may be approached about a gig or something of that sort. Can you talk maybe more about the performance scene in San Francisco as a whole and what it was like starting out in drag there and maybe some of the things that made it special versus also the challenges that you faced?
I really truly felt gender euphoria. And it wasn’t about the women aspect of it; it is about the femininity and the clown. It was very satisfying for my gender.
Mama Ganuush: San Francisco drag is super, super radical and extremely eclectic, and it’s very unique versus actually drag in most American cities or even in Europe. And that actually is influenced by how San Francisco is. And I’ll give you an example, like drag in San Francisco can be really quantified into ballroom drag or pageant drag. We have some of that, but we have a lot of drag that is influenced by political movement and political statements, or also a drag that is anti-mainstream, really very much punk. So San Francisco drag scene is known to be extremely accepting for all different artists.
The concept of “pretty” or “beauty” is not something that really San Francisco drag artists care about as much. Although we have incredible queens that do a lot of work that is very much like mainstream drag, but we have a big influence of, for example, the trans community and drag kings and drag artists and gender vendor drag. So our drag is not really just about drag queens and pageants and more women impersonating in a more of a classical high drag fashion. It’s also incorporates this and a lot of different ways of expressing yourself as drag, including being a hairy bearded queen like myself that something is not repulsive in San Francisco is extremely celebrated.
So just being in San Francisco scene, I was extremely inspired even before becoming a drag artist by all the different drag performers and how they use their platforms for whether political movement, trans rights activism, or just having a very goofy campy form of drag. So because of the San Francisco scene coming out of it, the art scene in San Francisco, the broader art scene in San Francisco is very limited unfortunately. San Francisco became a tech hub with a lot of new money that doesn’t really support the art as much or pay a lot into artists.
So a lot of the fine art scene, performance art scene, is pretty much limited where drag thrives because drag is also part of the night scene and part of the queer community, and San Francisco as a hub for the queer community and gay liberation. That became a form of art that is really connected to the community and still have an audience and still have bars and stuff like that. So that sort of drag form of artistry still thrives in San Francisco just because of the scene. But the broader art scene is very, very, very limited.
And then if you look at the challenges in San Francisco when it comes to drag specifically and art in general is that if you’re somebody who doesn’t want to work with pro-Israel or Zionists, it’s almost impossible to find proper funding or grants due to the idea that actually most of the grants that we have in San Francisco for artists are limited to LGBTQ. For example, nonprofits that are funded by Israeli or pro-Israeli politicians and Israeli grants, or another grant called the Civic Jury Fund that is funded by four major Zionist families that are… Actually, they’re the ones who made the new Israeli Fund, and they’re the people who were planting, for example, trees in the settlements in Palestine.
So if you’re somebody who’s anti-Zionist, you even get canceled in gigs. A lot of drag artists that I know have been canceled from one of our biggest stages, like Oasis for example, and others just because of their activism for Palestine. But this said, Oakland is very close to San Francisco city, although Oakland is basically twenty-minutes drive across the bridge from San Francisco, but Oakland is like a hub for this, pretty much supportive grants and supportive scene for artists who are activist artists. So I feel like San Francisco with Oakland compensate each other in order to support building a platform for artists who are activist artists. Just basically what drag is all about.
One of the key things, for example, that showed up with SF Pride, like our pride festival, San Francisco Pride is one of the biggest prides in the world, and it is pretty much funded by a group of Zionists and very pro-cop, very pro-police organizations. And a lot of artists had to boycott, basically, Pride and boycott a lot of their biggest gigs if they don’t want to operate or work in the process of branding Israel and normalize it through a lot of this pink washing campaigns that happens through SF Pride and other things. But as a community, we came together and built alternatives through this.
So that’s why where the Cabaret Palestina and Cabaret Hala came, and a lot of other events that happening all around Oakland and San Francisco, which is very much grassroots and very grungy and very community put together versus funded by organizations in order to put out a platform that represents San Francisco drag, which is a radical drag that is an activist drag. That’s the background of it. It’s not gender conformative and not conformed by any form of means.
And also addressing mainstream support for Israel, even in the drag community and on the broader drag scene that basically try neutralize Israel and neutralize these issues as something that drag is all about clowning and a lot about dancing and fun and pubs and clubs versus drag is a form of protest. So I would say to sum it up, drag in San Francisco is extremely rich with a lot of people that come from a different point-of-view when it comes to drag performance and others. And the nightlife scene in general is still thriving because San Francisco night scene is thriving as a queer scene. And our biggest struggle is really being able to widen your platform if you want to be somebody who is really against Israel. Really, Israel is an issue.
One of the biggest issues that we have in San Francisco in terms of flourishing as an art scene and as a drag scene, if you’re a Palestinian or a pro-Palestinian liberation, your problem is just being pro-Palestinian just because of all the Zionist funding. And I know that this is specific about the art itself, but I’m very happy to dive deeper into why this becomes a pretty big Zionist gay hub, San Francisco, and why it’s very difficult to do true liberation work and also perform and utilize that platform that radical drag and radical activism, San Francisco due to that. So happy to dig into this, but I don’t know if I was able to answer your question, but I’m happy to dive deeper into the art piece. Yeah.
Nabra: You absolutely did. And we can dive into anything. I also listened to, you are featured in a pink washing genocide panel on Sad Francisco, which is I guess a podcast, but it was a live event. and I also, we really recommend that to go deeper into pink washing in the Bay Area scene as well. I think you really go into that, but we would love to get into that too. There’s nothing off limits to this podcast.
And also something I’m curious about is whether that the elements of activism in drag was something that attracted you to get into drag in the first place. Did you recognize that there were other Palestinian drag artists or that that was this space where you could make the statements that you wanted to make? Or was there another reason you got specifically into that art form and then discovered that later?
Mama Ganuush: That’s so beautiful. That’s a good question. Honestly, no, I came to it from my trans experience. So the first time I was dating a drag queen, her name is Cassidy LeBlanc, she’s also my drag mother technically because she’s the first one to put me in drag. And when Casey or Cassidy put me in drag for the first time, I had a full body orgasm and I was pretty much in touch for the first time, I really truly felt gender euphoria. And it wasn’t about the women aspect of it; it is about the femininity and the clown. It was very satisfying for my gender. That’s one of the reasons actually I went into drag because I was like, “Oh my gosh, I could totally explore.” It was like a gender exploration journey through drag because you could literally come up with any form of alter ego or any form of whoever you want to be through drag.
And then the first thing here in my mind is Mama Ganuush, which is basically my drag name. And I thought about it because of my aunts and they’re very loud, especially from Gaza. I’m half Gazawy, half Jaffawy [meaning from Gaza and from Jaffa respectively], and I have my grandmother who’s African that my family always shamed us. That’s a whole thing with Palestinians. But my Gazawy side is very loud, is extremely gregarious. They laugh. They’re extremely powerful. They kind of messy, especially my mom. She’s very messy. She’s a hairy woman. So, I just imagine how my mom looks like and if my mom was like a madam or a drag queen, how that would look like. And that gave me so much power because it’s also happened to be most of these women in my life are maqaawma [resistance]. They were in Al-Jabha Al-Shabia [Popular Front]. They were in different movements.
So, I have these elder women who were badass in their youth. They are still badass, but they’re hairy and they’re chubby and they’re cute and—you know what I mean—and they’re loud and they could do whatever the fuck they want, and they have really extreme eyebrows. The term of the lighting of the eyebrows is insane to me. So I had that vision in my brain, and that became my drag character, this unapologetic force of laughter, but also power and very entertaining. So that’s where Mama Ganuush came from. And then I used that to explore a lot of my favorite songs and my favorite songs… First my drag wasn’t really purely Arabic or purely Palestinian as it is right now, but I was very much inspired by Nina Simone and a few other artists in my life, and Amy Winehouse and others.
So I started using my drag to do this and also realized people don’t know anything about Nadia Al Gendy and other Egyptian B-rated actresses and artists. And so I started doing a lot of camp drag to introduce these different characters. There’s a B-rated movie for Nadia Al Gendy called Muhimat fi tal ‘abib, which is hilarious. You have to watch it. It’s really funny. Not meant to be funny, but it’s really funny. So I was exploring a lot of these pop culture moments because I grew up in Egypt with it, with a Palestinian perspective because Palestinians always made fun of Egyptians, although they were very attracted to Egyptians, but they also make fun of them. So that was this whole complexity came out of it. And then I also tried to do a storytelling through improv, and I really love engaging with the audience a lot.
And also being a theatre actor, you can’t really break character, even if you’re doing improv, what I felt in drag, you could do that. You could go in and mess with a audience, and you know what I mean, dance with someone or tickle someone or talk to someone. Not tickle, sorry, I mean, sentimentally, not touch them, but it’s more like you’re able to engage with the audience better. And I love to have that moment with the audience and also show a lot of power in my hairiness, in my gender bender. And I felt like my trans experience is fluid, and this is how my drag also represents. But this is how it started really. And then the Iran, the assault on these women in Iran started at that time. And I grew up with a lot of religious trauma.
I grew up in a Sunni household, and I went through conversion therapy, and I had a very traumatic experience growing up with religion and my gender journey. So that was a moment for me of reassessing this and coming out with anger against oppression against women or feminine expression in general. So this is really where when my drag went from, like “I’m having fun, including my gender” into “I’m going to tell you now that women not just in Iran, but in a lot of the SWANA regions are repressed.” And I did a lot of content around forced circumcision for women and forced gender surgery like in Iran, they forced people to go through gender journey and a lot of different accusations of assault that nobody really cares about in the Arab world specifically, not just Iran, when it comes to queer people and women or people who are femme, like, femme expressing folks.
And then when the genocide, and for me, because Palestine for me was an issue that it’s a deep pain that is very hard for me to process. And also, Palestine for me is always related with martyrism. I come from a family, my grandfather was killed by Israelis in Gaza. My uncles were killed in Jaffa in tamaneya arbaiyeen [in Arabic, ‘48, referring to the area inside the Green Line]. My father was imprisoned before, like my mom. Palestine for me, it’s this pure glory that I felt like it’s so hard for drag to touch because this is Palestine. And when I talk about Palestine in the past, my activism was focused on poetry and other forms that are a little bit more, I felt at that time like Puritan because I felt Palestine for me was something so glorious.
But then when I realized that in San Francisco, all of these queer scenes that I was in, the minute I talk about Palestine, people feel uncomfortable. I got shut down. And then everybody is a Zionist. Literally, everybody from my local representative, Rafael Mandelman, all the way to my federal government, they’re all Zionists, like Rafael Mandelman, like even my district person and everyone else, they even have Israeli citizenships. You know what I mean? So I realized, I was like, “Hell no, we need to talk about, we need to address Palestine in a form that just brings Palestine and surface it up.” And for me to take that, I looked at the form of Palestinian artistry, like tatreez, Dabke, food, there’s a lot of different forms.
Belly dancing is not a thing in Palestine. They do like raqs alhawanem, which is a very gentle dance with the shoulders. It’s like my mom would dance like this, but this is not for me, like something I wanted to sort of make it into a caricature. So I felt like the Egyptian side of my diaspora, this was the belly dancing part with Dabke, so I start doing both of them. So I do Dabke and belly dance in my performances. So I try to start infusing things, build on Palestinian diaspora and Palestinian art into my form drag. And this is what evolved from an expression for feminism and trans rights into Palestinian liberation and all liberation.
So it’s a process of how even my artistry evolved and that was expressed itself in the music, the performance, the choreography, the format itself, and even the clothing and the look and the character. So in the past, I used to wear more wigs, and now I wear this fez, this black fez that my grandfather wore in one of his old pictures, my great-grandfather, but in a very gendered way. So this way it looks like I look like a Palestinian from Obba wa Umbaz, and I look like my grandfather, but at the same time, I am my mother, Hosnia. And it’s, I don’t know, it’s a very evolved way of, it’s a journey really to do that.
Let me pause. Sorry, I speak too much. So please let me know if I’m over speaking here.
